No. 3: Sarah Schubert

Transcript

Lightly edited for readability.

JenOkay. Well, Sarah, welcome to the mini Notice That podcast recording. We're kinda setting this up here at the conference, but it was a goal of mine to get to meet you here to reach out and see if we can have you on the podcast. Bridger and I have been super excited to talk to you.

BridgerVery much so.

JenSo welcome.

BridgerYes. Very much so. Yeah. How are you feeling? You just, like, just finished your presentation. So how are you feeling coming out of it?

SarahIt's been so beautiful. Every every step I've taken out into the hallways and things, these people have just been so complimentary and yeah. Really lovely. I do feel quite overwhelmed.

JenI can only imagine.

SarahIt's a yeah. It's big. It's a lot of you.

JenDid Forgive me if I'm mixing email correspondences that I've had, but did you say this is your first EMDRIA conference to attend?

BridgerThere's a lot of you.

SarahSo many. So on my badge, I got, like, first time attendee and speaker.

JenAnd what a combination.

SarahI know. You keep those.

BridgerYou keep those.

JenOh, man.

SarahAnd what a what a conference as well to be here to see I I mean, just to honor Michael and then to see Viviana step in as well, and there's been tears.

BridgerVery emotional.

JenWill you share with our audience a little bit, maybe a a brief summary around your presentation and and that invitation to be a keynote speaker and maybe some of, like, the vision behind that.

BridgerLots of connection.

SarahYeah. I'm real lucky. That was a lot to do with Viviana. I think I I was welcomed into the summit last year, and that was virtual. And I just yeah. You don't get that connection when you're presenting online and to be a part of it. But Viviana was really keen to bring me in with, I guess, just grounding in what Shapiro's vision was, but also just recognizing some of the limitations in AIP as well. And she knows I work across the lifespan, so, you know, not every child can just jump in and do memory processing with the mind. So just expanding AIP beyond and she knows I've done theoretical research as well. And so just to bring the theory, but just to expand it where there might be limitations. And so my keynote was just about that, just beyond EMDR. No. It was more about knowing what you do in phase two, I think. Yeah. I didn't wanna get into the politics and the debates and which is so hard.

JenProbably very wise. Yeah. Yeah.

SarahHow can you not, though? It's just everywhere. It's like yeah.

JenIt is. When we we got to talk to Derek Farrell earlier today, and and he was even letting us know that it was like last year's conference was the future of EMDR was kind of the big title and that you your invitation to be keynote as well as his have kind of been, like, a continuation of that. Like, there was a bigger vision in that message of where are we going with this? Like, what does the future of EMDR look like and what tough changes and hard conversations and new exploration may need to happen?

SarahYeah. Yeah. And also, I think I think I was asked to even look back as we go forward. And so I really it wasn't planned at all for my keynote, but I I I'm supervising a PhD that's really looking at not the integration of EMDR into Indigenous culture in Australia, because we have the oldest culture in the world. Like, it's and and their voices are so unheard, but there's some Indigenous voices in Australia now that are strong enough in saying, you know, we don't want EMDR adapted to our culture. We want you to listen to our culture, and we'll invite you in. And and you can hear and learn, you know, what memory processing can be like when you come into our space. And so into the keynote, I was able to bring not just Shapiro's knowledge from and I really honor that. Like, I'm not a purist, an EMDR purist, but I am really honoring of the foundations of it. I think, you know, we have to be, yeah, really honoring of that. But bringing in Indigenous wisdom was something that I was really keen to do because we do have limitations in the way we see memory, in the way we look at time. We see it as past, present, future. It's not. This is all linked into one, and I think time is a really important thing in in Indigenous culture because time assumes sometimes that the trauma's in the past. It's not. It's not for many of us. Like, many of us endure ongoing racism, marginalization, and and so I think before we go forward, we have to look back and sometimes look at what are we getting wrong? What are we missing in AIP? What what are the foundational theoretical assumptions that, yeah, we haven't maybe got quite right?

BridgerYeah. And maybe this can get into some of your the theoretical research you were just kinda referring to, but I my background is in qualitative methodology, and there's so much to the assumptions and epistemologies that we bring in when we come to try to offer a service like EMDR to an Indigenous population as an example that even the most well intentioned clinician may not realize that your your theory comes with ideas and conscriptions about culture, about time, about the self, that you're, in some ways, requiring the person receiving the treatment to adhere to and thus receive that treatment. And so I'm really fascinated by just some of the elements you're discussing now. How do you see AIP in a nonlinear time?

SarahI think it's about being in the present, acknowledging that it's all encompassing. So that every single client in any moment is bringing the past into the present, but every movement we make is also acknowledging almost like ancestral knowledge and to move forward, that past knowledge is influencing every step I take into the future. So but also with time, like, memory doesn't belong to just my mind either. Like, memory is so much more than an AIP conceptualization of memory being here. Memories, I mean, everywhere. My keynote was mind and body, but distributed but distributed in time, place, context, objects, things, like and so when we're sitting in a room thinking we're processing memory in the mind, that's really limiting, I think, as well.

BridgerYeah. Distributed memory. Yeah.

SarahAnd you just noticed self and resilience were two things that came to to my keynote today as well. Because I think oh, no. I I totally blocked my keynote out because I'd finished, and now it's all just coming back.

JenThat's good.

SarahYou know where everything's connected.

JenIt's it's in real time.

BridgerThere's memory. It just had to go, you know, down, and then it's coming back.

JenRight now.

SarahThanks. It's coming back now. Yeah. There's yeah. Some of the Indigenous wisdom I brought in was, you know how we do phase two when it's like we should resource things or teach things or, I don't know, build up regulation or but I think, even just some of the things I said in the keynote was we make the assumption that we need to be building something up or resourcing something in phase two. But if we look to the past and all this knowledge we have, like, there's stories of resilience and strength in everyone, and phase two is not about creating something new. It's about connecting to what's already there. And so to think that we have to have resource figures or have a create a safe place, we shouldn't we should be connecting to the strength that everyone brings to therapy and their healing journey and connecting to the stories of survival and resilience. Like, that's the greatest resourcing you could ever get is to connect to that sense of self that holds not just your resilience stories, but in Indigenous culture, there's, like, tens and thousands of years.

BridgerThose of your ancestors and yeah.

SarahYeah. We don't need to build that. We just need to connect to it like it's there. Resourcing. Yeah. Phase two becomes easy when you can just connect to strength that people have.

JenDo you have in, like, your practice with it or even those that you're mentoring in that a way that you kind of go about connecting into resource that may not be even just within your own lifetime. Like but, like, the the resiliency and the the self within that.

SarahI had to cut my keynote short today, so there was actually something I didn't get to.

JenWell, hey.

SarahLike, oh, so much.

JenWe can talk about it here.

BridgerIf you're open to it, here we go.

SarahAnd then, you know, when you I didn't realize the big introduction's gonna take half an hour today. So, to honest well but, yeah, there is a there is a beautiful technique. I I mean, I honor safe place. I really do, but it's not it's not a resource technique that is needed or good for every like, who I've got kids, and and they told me they dissociate during certain classes and things like that. And it's like, doing safe place for a lot of our clients isn't helping them to be more present and more grounded in the here and now. It's a beautiful technique for certain things. But my favorite technique to connect to resilience or stories of who you are is, it's a technique I I call it finding the you that's you. And it's not really a technique. It's just a way of being with your client. And, it's asking clients every session, like, when have you been able to be yourself this week? So it's a it's a technique where you can just open ended go, when have I just been able to be me? Like and a lot of clients wouldn't know what that is. And and it's a technique which I really sit with and and honor just hearing, like, when can you be yourself this week? Doing what? Where? When? And last of all, with who? And so and I think the the where can you be yourself when if someone doesn't have a place in the world where they can just be themselves, that's really important. Like, if you can't have a place where your nervous system can rest and you can sit in that real core authentic ventral sense of you, then you're you're in flight and fight all the time. And if they don't have it, I'm not gonna create an imaginary safe place. I'm like, let's work out where we can make one. And so it's it's finding in the present moment when can you connect yourself with what around who. And that's not a preconceived idea about what self is either. Like, we are all diverse humans. If that's you sitting on the edge of stream next to a fire, like, that's the you that's you. But just yeah. Really. Yeah. That's that's how I'm resourcing. When you can connect to that authentic you, you can sit with the stories of who you are, and and then the present looks different. It it's yeah.

BridgerOne of the things I so appreciate about how you're describing it is I I believe words are you know, language is such a powerful medium of communication and calm safe place. And just again to think back to that importing of a world view when we bring EMDR to someone, not realizing that that is that is again, it's based in time in that way of calm, safe place when what is that gonna look like? Well, let's just create a fantasy one.

SarahIt takes you out of this time.

BridgerBut when you yes. But when you talk about you being you, it is it is innately present, but in a way that embraces as much as it needs to of the past or the future or or whatever. And it doesn't require them to sort of intellectually contend with what it what is safe or calm or you know?

SarahNo. It's that authentic core you. That's hard because how many I mean, if I said to you guys, like, when have you just been able to be yourself this week? Like, you you could come up with something. I'm sure. But what does trauma do? Trauma disconnects you from yourself, world, and other, and and that's what I think Indigenous wisdom brings as well is trauma is disconnection from not just yourself, world, and other, but all levels of social being. And and I think if we can do anything in therapy, it's to reconnect that back. And so that's that's my favorite phase two.

BridgerThat's lovely.

JenYou talking about that technique and coming up for me is just like yeah.

SarahI even hate seeing it as a technique because even that feels you know, I don't know what to call it, though. Like, it's yeah.

BridgerA way of being together.

JenAn invitation.

BridgerJust like one way of being together, we do this.

SarahWhen you check-in with your client, like, when you check-in, it's like, where have you been able to be yourself? Like and I do. I don't have it here. I I carry, like, little pebbles in my pocket, and I just give clients, like, if you can't remember how to connect to that, like, just hold this.

BridgerOh, that's so beautiful.

JenNot Yeah.

SarahSo they've got, like, little rocks that they take away from but I have I have them in my pockets all the time, but I I don't have one yet.

BridgerFeel like a a a penguin.

JenToday.

BridgerMy daughter loves my sorry.

SarahWhat? Yeah.

BridgerMy daughter loves, like, the Discovery Channel, kind of things, and, some penguins give rocks to those they love.

SarahYeah. What's that movie?

BridgerYeah. I can't remember off the top of head. I'm seeing it on the screen.

SarahHappy Feet.

JenHappy Feet.

BridgerHappy Feet.

SarahWas that thank you rocks.

JenThere you go.

SarahYeah. We do have rocks all over my house.

BridgerThat's so beautiful.

SarahBut they're beautiful, and that's a beautiful way that, like so with kids, they keep rocks, and they've got these beautiful smooth ones that just sit in the pocket, and they can pick what they like. But they just carry them around, and it's just a way to remind you of, like, how do we ground back into who I am, like, right now? And that's important. That's not hard, is it?

JenIn that process, I think some you know, I I think about this, like, authentic expression of self and how that's conditioned throughout our development that they're sometimes we see individuals who have lived a lifetime that have shown them that to be me is not acceptable. It's not tolerable to my environment. It's not safe. And there's almost, like, a relearning who who is you, and what is that process of, like, rediscovering and refining that. And a lot of our focus is on the therapeutic relationship, but that piece of that invitation, even someone saying with that kind of joy that you express with, like, when were you you? To me, that's an invitation of, like, you mean that that could be acceptable. You mean that that you want that. That feels like such a precious moment in the in the therapeutic space.

SarahIt's so precious. And sometimes they're finding that for the first time. You feel no.

JenNo one's ever asked them to do that before.

SarahIt's not good enough or it's never seen. And I think that's it's part of the limitations, I think, from AIP because AIP a lot of the assumptions, I think, are about big-T, Criterion A trauma sometimes. Not and it's not it's not intentional, I don't think, but think that's not what we're working with ever. We're working with intergenerational childhood repeated complex comorbid trauma that impacts way deeper than any criteria.

BridgerAnd the erosion of the self.

SarahAnd I think you've gotta spend time in your session. Haven't like, with with clients, how often do you know their part that panics or their part that drinks or self harms, but you don't. You get to session three, you're like, man, I don't even know you, and you can't grasp that. It's like and I I get that. I wanna I get the part of you that's really struggling and all these other struggles you're having, but I just wanna spend a minute to get to know you, and that's really hard. And that's gotta be titrated as well. Like yeah.

JenIs that even that invitation may be a moment of, like, I don't know.

BridgerDisorienting.

SarahI don't know what you mean by that. And then when you sit with that in sessions, I've had so many clients say, like, but how how how did you just find a space to be yourself this week? And they're like, I can't do that out there. And they're like, I can do it in here with you, but I can't get that. I can't reach me out there. I can't reach me out there. Like, I've had clients say that, and it's like, wow. Love it.

JenThat that precious space that we create in therapy where that could be an invitation and can't do it out there. But maybe I could find start to find and rediscover who I am in here.

SarahAnd if you can't connect to yourself, then in an authentic venture… someone talked about polyvagal things today. I was like, I didn't get to talk about that in my keynote. Keynote's like, bang, bang, bang. No micromoment stuff allowed. It's just like an Oxford handbook textbook.

BridgerYeah. That's right.

SarahIt's like, just reference this quick stuff. Oh, I can't even think of those saying this.

BridgerOh, the ventral Right.

SarahOh, connecting to yourself. Like, you can't connect to others in a genuine way if you're not in yes.

BridgerThe pro social system is just gone.

SarahAnd then in the keynote, was talking about expanding AIP theory beyond, you know, just the research that we've got on how eye movements work in the mind. Like, we kinda know how the brain and body and what happens during therapy. Quite a bit. Like, I took people into my old PhD research on looking at, like, what happens to the body when eye movements start and stop. But beyond all that research, we haven't got an overall comprehensive theory that explains every single thing that happens in therapy. There's just so many processes and mechanisms at play. But there are beautiful theories that try to expand AIP. There's a lot, but there's one called the biopsychosocial model of AIP. And in that, I think there's a there's a moment where they say your the AIP system innately is your attachment system. I need to understand that. And it is the AIP system is you connecting to yourself. Therefore, you can connect to others and the world and spirit and everything else that's beyond that too. And when we can connect to others, it gives you adaptive information of, like, see, I am heard. Like, I am valued. I am loved and cared for. There's a person in the world that cares that I'm alive, and that's the healing information for interpersonal relation trauma. Like, if you don't have that connection, which you can't genuinely have if you haven't got a connection to who you are, then you don't have what you need to heal from interpersonal trauma. You're gonna hit—if you're, if you're alone, you have no adaptive informa… because, like, childhood trauma, interpersonal trauma, relational trauma says to you that you don't matter. You're not seen. You're not of worth. You're not protected. You're not loved. You're not good enough. You're not safe. And if we don't have the antidote to that, then how do we heal in processing? And so, yeah, this attachment system to ourselves and to everything else and others is actually that is the, you know, AIP.

JenYou know, that is really striking me.

SarahMaybe it's not in our head.

JenJust recognizing maybe definitely my own blind spot in years of studying EMDR now, AIP has meant a very individual experience. Like, this is it's my adaptive information processing and and the clients, like the individual.

SarahMy name.

JenAnd hearing you talk about that, like AIP, the adaptive information as the collective, as the community, as the larger, yeah, the larger system in which the individual is embedded within, That's striking in a big way.

SarahIt's beyond, isn't it? I have people a lot more than Yes.

BridgerYeah. Well, that's I I was wanting to kinda go back to the title of of your talk because beyond it it that lent that word, I I think there's so many directions that you could go with that, obviously. Infinite, theoretically. And we've talked about time a bit, we've talked about culture and hidden kind of perspectives and voices and ancestry in that. But I think that collective piece is a is a part that's really resonating for me as well. That in the mind body, we're innately talking about a a mammalian system that is regulating between two. And so any yeah.

JenOr between Mindy.

BridgerYeah. Between more than one. In all kinds of ways.

SarahBi directionally all the time.

BridgerAnd so with that, the assumptions of a model that say it's it's located in the single in the individual, that's already going to blinders on. Like, limit, we're gonna miss, we're gonna objectify, we're going to decontextualize the individual. Yeah. That's a lot for a keynote to try to get into.

JenYou know, I even think about oh, I'm sure.

SarahBang. Bang.

BridgerYeah. That's right.

SarahThat's a lot. Had to cut out a lot.

JenEven think about, like, when I was trained in, Calm Safe Place way back, and they would talk about, like, if another person was a part of that, the the encouragement was to, like, there should be no other people. Right? Because that could, you know, make risk for contamination or some type of activation to come up. And I I can see the logic in that, but it's coming from such especially in American culture, such an individualistic focus of, you know, healing is kind of done internally or individually alone, and that relationship is at risk.

BridgerSelf regulated. Mhmm.

SarahNo such thing.

BridgerNo such thing.

SarahOh, well.

JenAgreed. A 100%. Just interesting to kind of I'm having these, like, flashes of moments of, yeah, my teaching and kind of development in the field of, like, oh, the culture of my own showing up there.

BridgerReinforced that. Yeah.

SarahI think we that was part of my message today that we we are the therapist we are because of where we live and who we are and what we know. And that that is part of the therapy process, but we have to keep questioning ourselves. Like, every time we go to a conference, every time we learn something or some from someone, it's like, oh my god. Who am I now? Like, who am I as a therapist? That matters because you've gotta show up authentically, and you've gotta make the unknowns of therapy known, and they need to know who you are as much as you're getting to know them. It's like, oh, this is how I work, and this is what I think maybe we could do together. Like, is that gonna work? Like but if you don't know who you are, how are you gonna be authentic to you as a clinician, which means you've gotta know your assumptions. You've gotta know what's driving the way you do therapy and why, and be open to maybe not being right all the time.

JenYes. The humility that is required in that of, like, is it okay to not be right and that to be an opportunity to get uncomfortable, which can then create growth and learning?

SarahLike yeah. Always.

BridgerIn the work we've been doing, we consider what we're talking about right now to be a fundamental task for the EMDR therapist. Even though in a standard basic training, you're most likely not gonna hear, hey, you need to look inward at how you're coming to this training and what you're thinking about some of these constructs and what you're introducing into the room. And I think that's yeah. I'm curious how you feel about that of of just what EMDR looks like with all of the sorry. Was there someone crying?

SarahYeah. I heard that.

JenSorry.

BridgerSorry. I was really yeah.

JenI was Well, I Yeah.

BridgerSorry. I have I have two small children too, so my body is just like yeah.

JenYou have a nervous system, and you're a human, and there's a baby crying.

SarahI heard it too, though.

BridgerHuman. Be surprised.

SarahOh, no. There is a little voice going on.

JenYes. I I can pick up.

BridgerYeah. Thank you.

JenI think it's okay.

BridgerSorry.

JenWhere you're heading up. But the therapist's responsibility to do their own self exploration and I mean, we talk about it as, like, deconstructing and understanding, like, what has developed us in our logic, but then even in our intuition, in our, like, impulse, in our instinct, like, all of that is memory. And how how is that then showing up?

SarahImplicit.

JenWhat that we then write story around it to say, like, oh, this is why I'm doing this, or this is what needs to be done. But can we take that kind of top layer off and really go inward and say, like, if I have this instinct on that, what is that? Like, what what is showing up in that?

SarahYeah. I think there's two things there. I think training is not the place to look inward. I think we have to really make training safe. I think the the practicum in training is something I'm very conscious about and how to make that a learning experience, not a therapeutic one. I think that's really, really important, and that's a different conversation about training and stuff.

JenBut it's a really important one.

SarahIt's a really important one. But looking inward, I think we all have to do. And one of the I mean, you know, you can learn theory. You can learn I'm a sensory motor therapy trained and synergetic play therapy and all the somatic experiencing. Like, I love all that stuff. But it it's it's theory. It doesn't mean anything. And I think the one teacher that taught me how to be in the room with a client and look inward was Lisa Dion. And so do you know her? Is it yeah.

BridgerJust the name.

JenHer material.

SarahSo she she taught me to be in therapy. So just and it was probably during COVID as well where you just dropped into everything because you were a little bit had to sit, slow down, and all of the therapeutic plans go out the window because you just you just have to be with someone. And then, the she taught me to listen to the conversations beneath the surface and the talk in therapy. No one remembers what you say. I can remember how you make them feel. And all of the conversations happening beneath the surface are the, you know, that think or the setup. Like, our clients will always make us feel what it's like to be them, but they have no words. And so we've gotta be listening to our nervous system. That's the clinical data because the clients will make you feel what it's like to be them. Like, kids will set up the toys and adults will be in the room so that you are made to feel a certain way, and that's the bidirectional nervous system conversation. That's the data. And if we're up here, we're missing all of the data that our clients are giving us, which is and we've gotta listen to that, and that is being with your nervous system and yourself. And and that's when your own trauma comes to life.

JenRight. There has yeah. For the therapist, there's a vulnerability.

SarahYes. And you gotta listen to that.

JenAnd yeah. It's sometimes it's scary to listen.

SarahOh that, she sent me to therapy because I I really like that was like I said, give them one trainer that's made me go do my own work really properly because now I'm being in the room in a different way, and and I'm noticing all my activations. And and, you know, when you think you've done work, and then you're like, oh, there's another layer here. But I do think we all need to do our own work.

JenMhmm. I'll tell you when we get a someone that's coming to our basic training, and they're like, I'm doing this because I had the most wonderful EMDR therapy. I'm like, great. Like, is fantastic. Like, what an optimal, like, time to learn how to do it when you when you have done that work because there is that vulnerability and sensitivity and, like, trainees coming in and those practice exercises, and it's like, oh, yeah.

BridgerEven just the didactic portions start to activate if that's all loose underneath.

SarahYeah. Oh, I've had someone cry just by talking about traumas of omission. Like, that was, like, in the first thirty minutes.

JenYou're like, oh, we have a a long weekend ahead of us.

BridgerExactly. Dude, what is trauma section? Yeah. Yeah. It's day one.

JenIt's day one. Yeah.

SarahLike, traumas of omission. And we all have them. That's why we're therapists. Right? Like, what's the what's the schemas of therapists? Self sacrificing, unrelenting standards because we feel like we're not good enough. We and that comes from trauma of omission, like, we've we've all got these trauma of omission on some level, which is why we're in here. We put them yeah.

JenIt is.

SarahProbably good therapist.

BridgerThat's right.

JenIt's a superpower in its own way.

SarahBut we don't wanna heal that in training.

BridgerWell, I yeah.

SarahThat that should be that's a therapeutic space.

BridgerYeah. I'm curious what you're kind of working on, now or what you're kind of doing after after the conference. Like, what what yeah.

JenWhat's your focus?

BridgerWhat's your focus? Where are you going?

SarahI know. I am supporting, yes, a lot of research and supporting Stacie is doing a PhD in Indigenous. I don't know. I've just finished the Oxford Handbook, and that's there's volume two starting.

JenThat's a huge, huge deal.

SarahWell, we need a well, it's been six years, and it still hasn't come in press.

JenOh my goodness.

SarahAnd so some of the chat has been online for a long time, so we we do wanna volume too, but that'll start immediately. I I've actually promised myself to go to conferences next year and not present. That's how I'm moving forward.

BridgerJust to go.

SarahI'm gonna go and have fun and go and connect. And I have three kids as well, and I really they're at that age where I I just have to be a bit more present. So I'm I'm putting a lot of energy into I'm on the board in in Australia, and I really I I've spent quite a bit of time, I think, putting energy into global projects, like the council of scholars, which you've probably heard of and other projects. But I really just wanna head back and just put some energy into our EMDR community in Australia and grow that and a training business which I've started. But there's a there's a this is such a big space in Australia. We have so many researchers and clinicians, and no one markets themselves. No one there's so much beautiful rich knowledge that I I really wanna set up a space where I can showcase that. And I do I mean, I'm really lucky. I've got a a beautiful trading business and website set up, and I just think I wanna I'm at a time where I can sit back and just help others get their voice out there, and that's kinda weird.

BridgerYeah. That's very cool.

SarahThat's where I'm at.

JenDo you mind sharing the ages of your kids or a little bit about who you are outside of this role of presenter and writer? And Okay.

SarahWe've got three. So they're eight, 11, and 13.

JenOh, man.

SarahSo yeah. You've got kids, is that?

JenRyan, my husband, have four and very similar ages.

SarahOh my gosh. Oh, really?

JenWe have eight, 11, 14, and 21.

SarahI'm 21.

JenBy the range.

SarahYeah. That's a big range. That's a busy time.

JenYes. It is. It's such a special time.

SarahAnd that age, like, they do everything, but they can't drive.

JenEverything.

SarahRight? So you have to you can't just leave them either.

BridgerCan't just leave them.

SarahI can't just leave Are you that mom where you just I'm always on my laptop in the back of trainings.

JenJust leave it.

SarahLike, I love you guys, but I just have to be out here. I'm just how old are your kids?

JenYes. Just going one place to another.

BridgerYes. Three and one.

SarahOh, that's the gorgeous time.

BridgerSo they're little little babies. Yeah.

SarahThat's the gorgeous time.

BridgerBut they're I've, you know, been gone since, Wednesday and getting videos of them from back home, and it just they've already grown.

SarahBlink.

BridgerJust in abilities, and I feel like my daughter's faces look different than I remember them.

JenSo fast at that age.

SarahI do.

BridgerYou know, it's like, what well, no. You can't grow up in a week. That's not supposed to happen.

SarahThis one pause time. Yeah. It's too precious. I think that's moving forward. It's the balance. You've gotta get the balance right, and that's so hard because, you know, the field just sucks you in, and there's never ending need of things that we can do. But, yeah, you gotta look at what's important. That's so hard. And I thought one of my supervisors said to me once, every every time you say yes to something, with all you're saying no to, I'm just like, oh, I need my kid. That's hard.

JenThere's a lot of grief in that of yeah.

SarahMother guilt is like, well, parent guilt.

JenOh, man.

BridgerParent guilt.

JenMothers and fathers alike.

SarahBut how amazing is those little creatures?

BridgerThey're incredible.

SarahLike, they they teach you.

JenDo they ever in, like, beautiful and also very challenging ways.

SarahThey bring attachment theory to life. Polyvagal theory to life. And they send you to therapy.

BridgerAbsolutely. They they show you what's back there and in here and in there.

JenWakes up all the stuff.

BridgerYeah. Yeah. My youngest, well, she we joke, but I think it's probably true that she understands English, but she won't she does not wanna talk. But she'll she will look at where you're wanting her to look. She'll pick up what you want her to pick up. She'll say, for yes or for no. And it's it's absolutely.

SarahBut you understand?

JenShe understands.

BridgerShe understands English.

SarahThere's this communication.

BridgerShe understands English. I'm telling you.

SarahOh, my kids are picking up their like, my daughter is not doing well in religion.

BridgerIt's ridiculous.

SarahShe's we go to, like, a private school. It's we're not Catholic, but it's a Catholic. Like, oh, I think you gotta pass religion. You you know, it's a can't fail. Maybe. She's like, mom, I can't. Like, I just just just regurgitate what the teacher says. And she's like, I just do that thing you talk about in work all the time. I'm like, why? Because I dissociate.

BridgerJust I was gonna say you said that earlier.

SarahI dissociate.

JenYou said that earlier. Is this your 11 year old or which the 13 year old?

SarahThat's that's that's the 13 year old.

JenThat's beautiful.

SarahBut my little eight year old came home the other day, and he's like, I said it, and the teacher rang me and said, didn't do his work today. And he goes, oh, I just I was just I was just in my safe place. I was like, what do you mean? And she said, we're just looking out the window, think of… [trails off] Three dissociative children.

JenI have a similar story. My eight year old, we had talked to her over and over about when she takes her swimming suit off, she can't just, like, leave it on the carpet because the wet suit I'm like, you're gonna ruin the carpet. We have a pool. So they're in and out all day. And so I had told her one time, like, okay, Piper. It's time that, like, if I find it there again, we're gonna have to have some kind of consequence. And so I walk in, and the wet swimsuit is there, and I said, Piper, what are we gonna have to do? And she she goes, mom. And she starts crying. And she's like, I'm so sorry. It's just my body just only knows just to take it off and put it on the floor.

SarahCome in. I'm just pulling.

JenI'm just following my instincts. Eight years old.

BridgerEight years old.

JenI was like, oh, girl.

BridgerI was like, oh.

SarahMy gosh.

JenAnd, of course, I did not give her consequences because she could communicate it so well.

BridgerWe're gonna have to re we're gonna have to rethink this.

JenJust following her instincts.

SarahYes. I think yeah. I have a 13 year old that does that. Same instinct, same body.

BridgerOh my gosh.

JenAmazing how similar they are.

SarahOh my gosh. But kids teach you a lot.

JenOh, man.

SarahAnd I think that's that's who I am as a therapist. Like, everything, every child I work a lot with kids in care, and some of the examples I came to to present today were children in care where they have no adaptive information. They have no micro system. They have not nothing. They have no family, school, home. Like, life is just ongoing and on. And they can heal. Like, those kids can heal, but they they can't do memory processing straight away. There is a there is a phase two, you know, and it's not not them. It's the system around, and we have so many systems in our cultures and countries that are so traumatized that we can't just be working with these kids. But I think if we can do it's adolescence in out of home care that teach you about blocks and resistance and the need for phase two and and the need to reconnect to everything they've lost.

JenOh, man.

SarahBecause they've lost everything, and they've continued to live. Like, there's there's no one. Like, you are it sometimes, and, and the work has to be beyond them. It's with the system. I think that's some of the stuff I brought today. We don't have to do AIP just with individuals either. Like, so the work we do with out of home care is, we draw a lot on Nacho Jarero's protocols that we do IGPT, for ongoing traumatic stress. And so we we provide group therapy to residential care staff, to, house managers, residential care to child protection managers and psychologists. And so we're not working just with the individual. We work in dual therapists, and we also work as group facilitators. And so EMDR is beyond the individual for sure. It's we can apply it to systems, organizations. They are alive and have memory and are traumatized too. The AIP is well beyond the individual.

BridgerYeah. I don't know how much you know about The States, but our system is not like that in a vast majority of spaces.

JenIt doesn't support that at all.

BridgerThose providers are on islands in their in their care facilities.

SarahYeah. Do you know what? We don't any we we don't work individually anymore. So if I'm taking on a child in the system, contract, there's two therapists, dual therapists.

JenI mean, this is a much larger conversation, but it's like, how that would be absolutely unheard of in the systems that we have and the funding, the financial.

SarahYeah. They pay for two of us And phone calls and emails and all contract and then meetings. And and that means, like, if I'm traveling and training, then then she steps in for the therapy role that week. And if there's a rupture with me, my friend, Kel, she'd be like, Sarah's on on your side. Like, if if I've had a rupture with the client, she can repair that with me.

BridgerOh my gosh.

SarahIt's like it's and you have two people that care about this child, and it gives you energy, and it gives you a voice. Stepping into a system where there's a lot of trauma and resistance and inflexibility and different conceptualizations, you can have a voice together. And it stops burnout, and it it makes you also be very accountable for the work you're doing. You're not hidden away in a room by yourself. It's like you're conceptualizing together. You're working together. You bring the energy together, and and the client has more people that care about them.

BridgerWeird. So the therapists are healthier and the work is better. And the client wow. It's almost like that's how it should be.

SarahIt's so should be. And that's what Nacho's work is. You don't just heal what does he heal? A 100 people at a time?

BridgerOkay. Right. Right. Right.

SarahHow good's that? And he's like, there's always a team. So, yeah, why are we doing therapy on our own? We don't have to.

JenI hope we yeah.

SarahYeah. You guys don't do this on your own. What do you do?

JenAbs I mean, we try to not do anything on our own.

BridgerYeah. And anytime we present or write or talk anywhere.

JenIt's always a team. We were we had the honor of presenting last year, and Caleb, our colleague that we introduced you to, and Bridger and I, all three, presented together. And it was just like, this is how we present. Like, we present ideas together. We add. We contribute. We add new perspective. I couldn't wouldn't wanna do it any other way.

SarahWhole is greater.

BridgerThat's right.

JenIt really is. Sarah, I genuinely feel like I could talk to you all night just as a person.

BridgerThat's right.

SarahWe got a party to get to. To thank you.

JenYes. Thank you so much for giving your time to this, and Hey.

BridgerYes. Is there a place you wanna direct listeners to follow your work or just be involved with anything that you're doing?

SarahI do. I have I have a website, and it's just, drsarahschubert.com. Yeah. We've got a beautiful little training business, and we somehow got the name. We only opened it up ourselves, less than two years ago, but the name EMDR Therapy Training Australia was available.

BridgerOh, perfect.

JenLucky you.

SarahThat's us. How good's that? We're like, really?

BridgerThat's very cool.

SarahWe'll take that one.

BridgerYeah. That's very cool.

JenThat's very cool. It's both.

SarahEMDR Therapy Training Australia. That's where you'll find us.

BridgerThat's awesome. Yeah. Well, to all of our Australia listeners, which they're every month looking at the analytics, it's neck and neck with The US and Australia, which is amazing.

SarahWe're there. Yeah.

JenWe have quite a I don't know how that happened, but that's fantastic.

SarahWe're there. Yeah. You got an Australian vibe.

JenDo we?

BridgerNo. That's a that is such a compliment.

SarahYou too?

JenOh my gosh.

BridgerOh my gosh.

JenBlushing.

BridgerWhat a what a way to end today.

JenWhat a way to end today.

BridgerIt just got red in here.

JenYeah. Thank you so much, Sarah.

BridgerThat's amazing. Yeah.

SarahThanks for having me.

BridgerThanks, Sarah.

JenYeah. I appreciate it.

BridgerAppreciate it.

SarahCheers.